The Cessna 120-140 Association Forum

Looking for an airplane to do a bit of teaching in. Looking at metal wings due rag wing recover possibility. Have looked at two, rejected pre buy on one, on cusp of doing pre buy on another. I do have an old port a port full t hanger secured.

Current subject had wings done in 1976, and had a complete equipment list along with new W and B record done at that time. Showed a weight of 959-ish. STC used says weight gain of 12 pounds. Only additional changes since then were shoulder harneses (2 pounds) spin on oil filter (3 pounds), 0200 install (3 pounds), VG's (.5 pounds maybe?), some fancy sun visors (2 pounds) and a radio in and out. As part of my intial look, we had it weighed. It now weighs 1017 pounds, no fuel, full oil. Somehow, with nothing obviously done, it's gained 60 pounds since the last W and B. Low hanging fruit to add another gallon or two is an odyssey battery, replace heavy carpeting/door panels/head liner (which is still presenting well) remove hat shelf, remove wheel pants brackets, remove unnecessary venturi. All of that may be 15 pounds and will cost, what, $1200? I know abourt Skytec and BC alterntors, but that is more then I want to spend to save 8 pounds until they fail. Mike Busch will be proud.

The wing has inspection ports .

As it sit's can get a max 200 pound student in flying kit, ditto me, and twelve gallon's useable in and be legal. I'll be at or near gross most of the time, north georgia, DA 3500 ish in the summer, no obstacles, 3000 feet of grass or 5000 on concrete.

Airplane presents well, owner is a straight up guy, well thought of by his A/I, has 5 other airplanes in his hanger, (s) etc. STC's/ mods: 0-200/350 hours on reputable rebuild, spin on oil filter, VG's, Clevelands, Scott 3200, fancy sun visors, strobe, leading edge landing lights, shoulder harneses, electric T and B. Everything works. Needs a VSI, and airspeed looked wacky on test flight (way high at cruise, like up around 120 at 2400 RPM, gusty day). Airframe logs missing pre 1960, with note of carry over TT. Engine logs on 0200 back to rebuild. Owner had nice binder of airplane history. Airplane is in ballpark price wise, owner is firm bearing an airworthiness issue during pre buy

I like the look, I like the mods. Seems to fly well.

So this begs the question: Am I getting two wrapped around the axel about weight and performance at max gross, and limiting my student weight? Or, should I discount the need to recover the wings at some point, and expand look?

Thanks
Scott

I'm not a CFI, but I did my 140A tailwheel training this summer, with some of it from a field elevation of 4500' and DA of close to 7100 on a couple flights. With me and my CFII, ( I certainly won't call him out on his weight, but I'll admit to 210 lb for me) and less than full fuel, we were right at MTOW. It sure taught me more about coordinated flight, and control feel than I ever learned in my 182. I think there were even a couple times when we got a climb rate up to 300 fpm for a bit. I don't know that it is worth getting all wrapped up about a few pounds if the airplane condition checks all the boxes in a good way. As the student, I didn't see a downside of learning at max weight.

With the extra 15 HP, one would hope that if slightly over gross, it would still outperform a stock plane with a C-85.
Maybe lose the latest weighing?

My opinion is with aircraft his old, W&B forms are mostly a fantasy, as is the claim of always hangered and no damage.

Current condition is all that matters, who cares if it was ground looped in 1955 so long as it was repaired correctly?.

Now if you know your maybe a little over gross, especially in a 70+ yr old airplane, maybe don’t spin it etc. But gross weight is for me more of a performance concern than anything else.

Oh,I’m not a CFi

Cudamark,
How did it feel size wise with you and your instructor?

I can tell you when my Wife andI fly, I have to put my arm around her shoulders.
Even solo I like to have the window open for shoulder room.
FAA still says average person is 170 lbs, I don’t believe that’s true anymore.
152’s used in training are very rare now, seems it’s all 172’s, People are bigger now.

I had a friend that had a Piper Clipper, it seemed to have more room and plenty of power, but if you want control wheels then a Pacer it is.
Probably a lot more Pacers out there too.
Very early Maule and a Pacer sure look a lot alike, and I bet M4 Maule’s may be cheap.

With 2 guys my size, it was tight, but not horrible. We even flew it from DFW area to Marfa. About 350 nm. Certainly not as comfy as my 182! For the training, it was just fine as far as comfort goes. I was too busy complying with “keep coming down, more right rudder, stay on centerline, keep that wing down, more forward pressure, no forward pressure, too much forward pressure.....”.

Gross wieght is a structural integrity concern vis a vis speeds and loading. I know we all have flown small airplanes over gross. In an accident investigation, with liability concerns...it might come up. "Course, how do you prove fuel loading?

While inflight just unlatch one or both doors and let them trail. Makes it a bit more comfortable. Can do all the maneuvers and never felt any buffeting or weird stuff happening. Some students don’t like the door being unlatched even though you really don’t notice it. As noted before you could open window but sometimes it’s just too loud. Seems like times are changing. Years ago it seemed everybody looked the other way at “real” W&B data while training. “Oh and by the way I only weigh 135#” “ Ya know your check airman is 250 pounds but for your calculations on the ride he wants you to use standard weight”. Now I strive to be legal......well I try.