Page 1 of 1
cross wind landings
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:19 am
by 8390
Can not find any reference to the "max" demonstrated cross wind for the C140. . . . any help on this or practical limitations??
Re: cross wind landings
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:06 am
by hotrodmac
Operators manuals for birds of this vintage are notoriously scant on the subject. To be honest, I’m not sure at what point manufacturers started entering demonstrated crosswind component in the manual.
Based on my experience in other airplanes, it’s a combination of pilot skill, aircraft configuration and ambient conditions. When you can’t keep the nose in line with your direction of travel because you’ve run out of rudder, you know you’re beyond the limit and need to go somewhere else.
I’m a relatively inexperienced tailwheel pilot, so I haven’t had the guts to find out exactly what that max for my 140 is. I know this isn’t the specific answer you were looking for, but it’s my two cents.
Happy Flying!
Lance
Re: cross wind landings
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:17 am
by 6643
Max demonstrated crosswind didn't come into being until CFR Part 23 certification. Our planes are certified under CAR 4. CAR 4 makes no mention of crosswinds. CAR 3a (successor to CAR 4) requires the plane be controllable in a 90 degree crosswind up to 0.2 times Vso.
My experience is you can land in a pretty stiff crosswind, as long as it isn't too gusty. If you run out of rudder you can crab into the cross wind and land at an angle to the centerline (down wind side to upwind side). Bottom line, go out on a windy day and find a crosswind runway you can practice on. Find out what you're comfortable with. The more you practice, the easier it gets.
I once landed at and took off from a former AFB with a 300 foot wide runway. The takeoff run started on the midfield taxiway and was almost directly across the runway. I lifted off before the centerline, turned "upwind" and punched out of the top of the ATA while still over the 11,000 foot long runway.
Re: cross wind landing
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:06 am
by a64pilot
I Certified several Thrush aircraft, all but one’s Certification basis was CAR 3 /CAM 8. All had demonstrated cross wind numbers, but most didn’t even have takeoff, climb or landing data, only the S2R-H80 did for the CAR 3 aircraft, and only because I included it.
The S2R T660 is the only FAR 23 agricultural aircraft in the world, and it has charts as required for FAR 23 aircraft.
In our aircraft the max demonstrated cross wind velocity was simply the highest cross wind component we ran into during certification test flights.
It’s not a limit, and that confuses most people, it’s simply a demonstrated speed, if memory serves the S2R- H80’s is 12 mph, and I’ve landed one in 30 mph, but not during Certification
For instance the Certified ceiling for all S2R’s is 12,000 ft, but I did some engine testing at 25,000 ft. So the Certified 12,000 ft is not a limit, just simply what it was Certified to.
Think of them as assured numbers, not limits, sort of saying they are at least capable of these numbers
FAR 23 certification is uncommon, I don’t think any Cessna single is FAR 23, even a brand new 206. Only a foolish manufacturer gives up older cert basis, and it’s a very big reason why you don’t see “new” designs from Cessna, Beech etc.
New design aircraft will most likely be FAR 23, but I bet if you look into their Certification basis, you’ll find a long list of items that they are not FAR 23 compliment.
Re: cross wind landings
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:34 am
by 6643
Is that typical crop duster apparel?
Good point about the crosswind component being demonstrated. I had forgotten that. It's simply the highest crosswind component encountered during the testing, not a design limit or anything like that.
Re: cross wind landings
Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 10:07 am
by barrett5991
It’s hard to set an exact number on the maximum crosswind that the cessna 120/140 can take. Usually the pilots minimums are going to be lower than the aircrafts minimums. With that being said, the number is somewhere between 20 and 27 knots. I know this because I landed with a 20 knot crosswind 2 days ago and still had rudder authority. I lost rudder authority with the 27 knot crosswind yesterday which made for a wild ride to say the least. Once again, this is just my experience and yours may vary. I can confidently say that my new max crosswind will be 15 knots because anything over that just isn’t comfortable for me in the aircraft.
Re: cross wind landings
Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 10:36 am
by a64pilot
There are techniques that can increase the max cross wind ability, for instance as rudder authority is airspeed dependent, wheel landing at a higher speed will allow a higher cross wind.
However be careful with that, it’s an almost guaranteed eventual ground loop.
As I’ve gotten older I just keep the airplane in the hangar when the wind is up too much, it’s just not as much fun flying in strong and gusty winds as it used to be.
Another issue is taxiing and ground handling.
Years ago we went to visit our Daughter in Savannah, winds forecast were for strong west winds, but they didn’t pick up until late in the morning, so if we left early we should be fine.
Well the Wife was late getting ready, I knew we were in trouble when I had 180 kts ground speed, and the Maule isn’t even close to a 180 kt airplane.
Got to Savannah, and luck was with us, winds were straight down the runway, but after landing Ground called and fussed at me for taxing through a no movement area, I apologized and explained that was as close to the wind as I could get the tailwheel airplane to go.
I about burnt up the left brake getting to the FBO, and I assume gnd may have called them, because a couple of guys came running up to hold the struts for me to shut down so we could tie down, without them I would have had to turn into the wind and shut down, then try to horse the airplane into alignment to tie up I guess.
So with strong gusty winds, it’s not over with the landing.
Just as a general statement, tailwheel aircraft have much more rudder authority than nose gear aircraft, because they need it.
Re: cross wind landings
Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 8:53 pm
by klyde sessna
Great point about taxiing with a strong crosswind. I've had to have my passenger get out and walk the rear fuselage while I slowly taxied in when I ran out of brake. Only once.
Re: cross wind landings
Posted: Fri May 28, 2021 9:27 pm
by barrett5991
a64pilot wrote: ↑Mon May 03, 2021 10:36 am
There are techniques that can increase the max cross wind ability, for instance as rudder authority is airspeed dependent, wheel landing at a higher speed will allow a higher cross wind.
However be careful with that, it’s an almost guaranteed eventual ground loop.
As I’ve gotten older I just keep the airplane in the hangar when the wind is up too much, it’s just not as much fun flying in strong and gusty winds as it used to be.
Another issue is taxiing and ground handling.
Years ago we went to visit our Daughter in Savannah, winds forecast were for strong west winds, but they didn’t pick up until late in the morning, so if we left early we should be fine.
Well the Wife was late getting ready, I knew we were in trouble when I had 180 kts ground speed, and the Maule isn’t even close to a 180 kt airplane.
Got to Savannah, and luck was with us, winds were straight down the runway, but after landing Ground called and fussed at me for taxing through a no movement area, I apologized and explained that was as close to the wind as I could get the tailwheel airplane to go.
I about burnt up the left brake getting to the FBO, and I assume gnd may have called them, because a couple of guys came running up to hold the struts for me to shut down so we could tie down, without them I would have had to turn into the wind and shut down, then try to horse the airplane into alignment to tie up I guess.
So with strong gusty winds, it’s not over with the landing.
Just as a general statement, tailwheel aircraft have much more rudder authority than nose gear aircraft, because they need it.
Theres definitely some knowledge to be gained when attempting to land and taxi a tailwheel aircraft with strong winds. I too about burnt up a brake just trying to get back to my hangar. My biggest takeaway from the experience is that I would rather be on the ground when the winds pick up. Or at the very least, in my schools airplane, not mine.
Heres an interesting thing that I read the other day. A pilots personal minimum for crosswind landings in a tailwheel aircraft should be half of what they are comfortable landing with in a tricycle gear aircraft.
Anyway, Blue skies fellas
Re: cross wind landings
Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:39 am
by 8014
The most I've ever landed with was 20G25 at 60 degrees to the runway which is a 17G22 crosswind component. It wasn't fun (understatement) but I had full control. I chose a tail-low wheelie at about 70 mph indicated and brought the tailwheel down quickly after planting the downwind main. Normally, I would not fly in those conditions but my son and I were on a cross-country from Chicago to Faribault last October and didn't have a lot of options.
Tony