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Buying first plane questions
Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:31 pm
by 8322
My name is Ray, I'm new to the group, I'm beginning my hunt for my first 120/140, well first fully owned plane at that, and am looking for some input from those of you that know these girls so well.
In the reading I've been doing, I'm seeing mostly negative things about buying one with metalized wings. Most cite the loss of 50lbs give or take of useful load and mentions of they just don't fly as nicely. What are your thoughts? Should I pass by the metal winged gals for sale?
What list of questions should I be asking each seller, I'll list below the ones I've already been asking but there could easily be things that I don't even know yet to ask:
They all mention TSMO but I've been asking when it was done too.
If there has been any long term hanger time since OH and if so, how many hours since it was stored.
Brake system if not mentioned?
Cracks on gearbox or tailwheel bracket?
Corrosion?
Damage History?
Compressions?
Annual Status?
Any notable squawks?
Condition of fabric wings?
What questions am I missing I should be asking up front before even thinking of trying to visiting or asking for highly detailed photos.
Thanks for your help, Ray
Re: Buying first plane questions
Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:34 pm
by 6643
Well, first of all, they're not all girls. It's hard to tell them apart, at first.
Age and type of fabric is something you should look into. Empty weight (how was it determined? I've seen lots of planes that weigh 70 lbs more on scales than they do on paper.)
Metal wings shouldn't be a show stopper, but I'd look carefully for wrinkles in the skins and how the airplane is trimmed. It's easy to trim a fabric winged plane; not so much if the wings aren't flexible. Also, if the wings aren't both jigged the same way when the skins are installed they won't fly evenly (level).
Radios already installed don't command a huge price difference. New, professionally installed radios you add do.
Re: Buying first plane questions
Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:54 am
by 6183
Sent you a PM.
Re: Buying first plane questions
Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:49 am
by 6898
Ray, I'm available mornings 8-9am CST 815 695 9970 can give you some thoughts?
Re: Buying first plane questions
Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:45 pm
by 8339
Ray, all good questions. I am also big on DATE of overhaul. Last one I looked at was better Tom end field overhauled in 1963. A 55 year overhaul is not ideal, especially when you don’t know history. Beware. Corrosion is another factor. The airplane would have moved around theoretically, so inspect and make sure there isn’t widespread corrosion. Dents. Be careful of big dents on the empennage particularly. That is a monocoque (stressed skin takes the structural load.) structure. Logs missing seem to be common unfortunately. A good prebuy is important. I’m looking too. Good luck on your search.
Re: Buying first plane questions
Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:09 pm
by 7950
Take a good look at some key annual / regular check items. In retrospect ( now I have done annuals ) I would always be looking in log books for some kind of reference to an annual check sheet / record that you can see what was done. Even if it is only the last annual. I would be looking at when the bearings on the wheels were last greased, last set of compressions on cylinders, last timing check. I would be asking the owner about oil burn. I would get the owner to turn on the fuel and the beginning of the walk round and then see if there are more than drips of fuel at the end. Check the brake calipers move a little ( they shouldn't be locked solid ) - when was the brake fluid last replaced ? When was the tail wheel last greased ? Does that square with the colour of the grease around the tailwheel ?
A totally clean logbook - just checks noted - would ( on aircraft this age unless rebuilt in the last couple of years ) immediately make me wonder where the real story is... There are always jobs to be done and there ought to be worksheets / records.
What I would be trying to establish is if the aircraft has had regular maintenance from an owner / engineer who takes trouble.
Take a torch - if the wings are fabric hold the torch over the centre of the wings on the outside, shinning onto the fabric. Can you see light when you look inside the wings ? Have a look under the panel - is the wiring neat or a birds nest of old wires ? Tells you something about the care of the aircraft.
Take pictures of all the A/Ds with you. Most have a good diagram. Look hard to check they have actually been done.
Drop some fuel from the tanks and the gascolator. Any bits ?
If it looks to good to be true it will be too good to be true.
Re: Buying first plane questions
Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:42 pm
by 8322
8339 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:45 pm
Ray, all good questions. I am also big on DATE of overhaul. Last one I looked at was better Tom end field overhauled in 1963. A 55 year overhaul is not ideal, especially when you don’t know history. Beware. Corrosion is another factor. The airplane would have moved around theoretically, so inspect and make sure there isn’t widespread corrosion. Dents. Be careful of big dents on the empennage particularly. That is a monocoque (stressed skin takes the structural load.) structure. Logs missing seem to be common unfortunately. A good prebuy is important. I’m looking too. Good luck on your search.
Tht is interesting about the monocoque, that was totally new information to me and thanks for explaining what it meant not just using the word
Re: Buying first plane questions
Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:43 pm
by 8322
7950 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:09 pm
Take a good look at some key annual / regular check items. In retrospect ( now I have done annuals ) I would always be looking in log books for some kind of reference to an annual check sheet / record that you can see what was done. Even if it is only the last annual. I would be looking at when the bearings on the wheels were last greased, last set of compressions on cylinders, last timing check. I would be asking the owner about oil burn. I would get the owner to turn on the fuel and the beginning of the walk round and then see if there are more than drips of fuel at the end. Check the brake calipers move a little ( they shouldn't be locked solid ) - when was the brake fluid last replaced ? When was the tail wheel last greased ? Does that square with the colour of the grease around the tailwheel ?
A totally clean logbook - just checks noted - would ( on aircraft this age unless rebuilt in the last couple of years ) immediately make me wonder where the real story is... There are always jobs to be done and there ought to be worksheets / records.
What I would be trying to establish is if the aircraft has had regular maintenance from an owner / engineer who takes trouble.
Take a torch - if the wings are fabric hold the torch over the centre of the wings on the outside, shinning onto the fabric. Can you see light when you look inside the wings ? Have a look under the panel - is the wiring neat or a birds nest of old wires ? Tells you something about the care of the aircraft.
Take pictures of all the A/Ds with you. Most have a good diagram. Look hard to check they have actually been done.
Drop some fuel from the tanks and the gascolator. Any bits ?
If it looks to good to be true it will be too good to be true.
Wow thank you! There is some good detailed things to look for!