New member, potential 140 buyer, tons of questions

[mdtrn]

I am leaning towards a 140 to as an aircraft to instruct others for TW endorsements. I'm comparing different aircraft on barnstormers trying to identify the features which I want or want to avoid.

First off, is there such a thing as a 120/140 buyers guide? I've looked around the internet and not dug any thing up. If there is I'll hold off on asking 50 questions about various options available.

Second, the airport of intended use is 2000 feet with substantial trees at one end. Is it even feasible to use a 120 or 140 for endorsement training? I found an unofficial source online stating 1850 feet to clear a 50 foot obstacle, can any one confirm this? Any significant difference in 50 foot numbers between the C-86, 90, or o-200?

Thanks.

[8362]

For whatever reason I don’t see people instructing in the 120/140s.
In your case, I’d have a good annual done by an excellent IA for a prebuy.
Door post cracking can be an issue. Mine had an issue with the elevator spar cracks.
I’m sure others will chime in with what needs to be looked at.

Useful load is something to look at. You don’t need 25g to instruct. I couldn’t fly with full tanks and my instructor.

I fly out of a 2000’ grass field with the 50’ trees 600’ away. I don’t fly it at gross on high DA days. What are you flying out of there now? I’m pretty sure a 120/140 does better than a 172 from what I see at my field.

There great planes. My instructor was very impressed by how honest it flys.

[mdtrn]

Currently flying a 145 HP 172 off the field. Have flown a bunch of the newer of 160 horse 172's, and a hershey bar cherokee out of there over the years.

The cracking is one of my questions. I had a brief conversation with a 120 owner who said to look for an out of place rivet on the horizontal stab to tell if some mod has been done. Any one have any info on that?

Useful load is also a big concern for me. It does seem like I'll almost always be taking off at max gross. (me at 180, a pax and 2 hours fuel for a lesson) Is the 120 significantly lighter than a 140? do the flaps weigh that much? In shopping and comparing, the highest 2 useful loads I have seen have both been 120's. One was so high I have a hard time believing it.

[8362]

47-43-05 CESSNA: (Was Service Note 3 of AD-768-5.) Applies to 120 and 140 Aircraft Serial Numbers 8001 to 13780, Inclusive.

Inspection required upon each 100 hours of operation until reinforcing channels are installed at all hinge fittings.

Inspect for fatigue cracks in the elevator spar web at the hinges. These cracks start either at the rivets or at an edge of the fitting and progress around the fitting until the elevator breaks loose from the hinge fitting. If cracks less than 1/2 inch in length are found a reinforcing channel, Cessna P/N 0434151 at the outboard hinge or 0434152 at the inboard hinge, should be installed on the aft side of the spar with the flanges riveted between the spar flanges and the skin with two AN 455AD3 rivets per flange. Four AN 442AD4 rivets should be used to attach each fitting to the spar web and reinforcing channel. If any cracks are longer than 1/2 inch the spar should be replaced and the reinforcing channels added.

My plane had elevator spar cracks, I found a set of elevators with the reinforcing channel.

Check out https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policie ... irectives/

A good prebuy is key

[gryph0n]

Major factor will be useful load. With a fabric wing, metal prop, electrical and flaps, my 140's useful is about 460 lbs. Take away 150 lbs for full fuel, and you get the picture. For dual instruction with a full load of fuel, your student will need to be 130 lbs or under; at half fuel they will be limited to 205 lbs. To get the weight lower than mine, perhaps you could find one with a wood propeller (good for about 20 lbs) or lightweight starter and battery (10-15 lbs). A 120 will also be lighter (no flaps), and one without an electrical system will be significantly lighter (further 50 lbs). I just bought a 140, and didn't see any of those in my 3-4 months of scouring Trade-a-Plane and Barnstormers ads.

[mdtrn]

My plan for instruction is two modern sized adults and 2 hours of fuel. I figure that's doable for pattern work. I don't intend of doing anything but endorsements.

Does any one have experience in comparable airplanes that are -85 and-90 or -200? Is the performance gain significant? There's a local -85 for sale. I'm wondering if it would be foolish to buy a -85 when performance will be a factor.

[6183]

Welcome aboard. I've giving quite a few TW endorsements using a C140A. I think the design is a good airplane to teach with and, personally prefer the side by side configuration for instructing rather than tandem seating because for me it provides for better communication and sight picture for the student. Students can see both your feet and your hands when you describe and demonstrate control movements.

As far as operations off a 2000 foot airfield you shouldn't have any problems if you preflight the aircraft takeoff and landing performance before flying. I prefer to teach early in the mornings when it's cooler during the late spring, summer, and early fall months, while being here in Florida which sports high humidity during those seasons of the year. Mid day lessons I wouldn't attempt off the field your talking about during hot days.

You'll see a difference in operating performance using a fabric wing 140 or120 over that of the 140A which has an all metal wing. It's been my personal experience that you'll see better performance in both climb and speed with a 120 or140 with the fabric wing. For example, a very good friend of mine Tom Julian has a 1948 140 with a fabric wing and a C-90, and he climbs better and can cruise faster than I can with an 0-200 powered C140A. Just my 2 cents.

Mike

[6352]

Fabric wing and 0-200 with climb prop would probably be your best configuration. Metal wings subtract quite a bit of useful load I estimate my metal wing adds 60-65 pounds to the airframe. They are pretty small inside so some larger folks may not be comfortable learning in them. Among the issues already mentioned inspect gearboxes carefully with angle mirror and flashlight. Cracked gearbox is an expensive fix. But all in all these are tough little planes. Get a good one and operating cost and maintenance are pretty cheap. I love mine!

[8014]

I have a 120 and did all my training in it, start to finish. My son did his TW in it as well. They are well-behaved with a gentle stall and are light on the controls.

They are cozy on the inside but my son (6'-2 and 170) and I (5'-10 and 190) fit just fine. As for weight, with full fuel we have 400 lbs. for people and baggage which should be enough for instructing. There are two very good things about the 120/140 as a teaching airplane:
1) If you are not overloaded, you cannot be out of balance.
2) The POH is a half-sheet. HAHAHAHA!

A question: Do you have a paved field nearby to teach wheel landings?

Finally, if it comes with extenders, have them removed ASAP. (Someone had to say it.)

Happy flying!

[mdtrn]

There is a paved 4000 ft strip 4 miles away.

I rented a nearby 140 with c-85 and went into the 2000 foot field I intend to use. It worked, but it was 70F and the performance was not very impressive to say the least. I'm fairly certain I'm going to narrow my search to c90 or o200 equipped aircraft.