Another prospective C-140 buyer

[8411]

Hello all!

I'm new to the forum and a new association member. I'm an airline pilot who very much misses flying for fun and I'm looking to get back to my GA roots. I live in northern Minnesota and I'm considering a 140 as a possibility. I'm not looking to use it for x-country travel. Just want something for low and slow flying, pancake fly-ins and to put skis on in the winter. Would like to get something with an O-200 to get a little more performance. I am looking for something with a Comm radio and xpndr. Not looking for a show plane. Just looking for a solid plane that is mechanically sound and doesn't need the fabric replaced. Don't mind a little ugly duckling as long as the critical parts are sound. Not looking to break the bank.

Question for you guys about the usefulness or ineffectiveness of flaps. I don't have any time in a 140 and from the research I've done it seems like the consensus is the flaps don't do much of anything as far as landing performance goes. I've also read that they have some positive effect in short field takeoff performance. While I don't plan on using it as a Backcountry plane, I would like possibly do a little off airport flying. Would you pass on a decent 120 w/o flaps in favor of a 140??

I'm sure I will have several more questions as my search has just begun.

Thanks!

Chris

[6898]

First , Welcome to a great fun group hope we can meet at a 120 140- convention (This year is Branson you can drive too) or a fly in? We took ownership of our first plane a 140 in 05 and its been great. Joining this Assoc. has lead us to flying some 40,000 miles in all directions of the US including a 3,000 mile trip to Tucson and back from NE Illinois. The people we have met have made this a fun adventure for my wife and I. The knowledge and passion of these owners is top notch.
When looking to purchase one make sure you have the correct people do a inspection while there's not a lot of issues some could be little costly if not caught up front. As far as the performance find a 120 140 in your area and go fly you'll find two adults in them is a little tight especially this time of year with winter coats on and performance seems to double when solo. There simple to maintain and very economical to annual and fly. Lots of members have had them on ski's i'm thinking someone would tell you pro's and con's of that (solid axles ?) As far as off site landings thinking a STOL plane would be better for a 400ft sand bar departure and I've always said you need 5 different planes cars and boats. Hope you fine a nice 120 140 and have fun with it not one regret from us!

[7896]

Hi Chris,

Welcome. I've owned a 120 with an O-200 on the front for 3+ years now. My goals are roughly same as yours. Not really going anywhere, just enjoy getting up in the air a couple thousand feet and looking around. Occasional fly ins..............

The 120/140's are great little airplanes! Personally, I don't miss having flaps. The planes perform terrific slips (on final approach).

Good luck with your search. It might take a little while to find a good one, but they are out there!

Blue Skies,

[8359]

This 140 is in your area, might be worth checking out..

https://www.wingswap.com/listing/10819

[8411]

Thanks for the warm welcome everyone! Regarding the plane in the link attached to the message above, I did take a look at that one last week. It was a nice looking plane but was lacking a radio and xpndr and had a C-85. Being that I have just begun my search I wanted to hold out for something that had a bit more of what I am looking for.

[8359]

Ah gotcha, yea that's important, the ad didn't have those details. As I learned with mine, having a strong electrical system from the get go is important will save you a lot of headaches. As does having your engine of choice.

As for your flap question, I do not have any issues with no flaps on my 120, but I have not flown a 140 to know if it makes a difference. What's your budget? I understand the desire to have complete logbooks, but keep in mind that might be difficult with an airplane this old. Mine is missing a few years here and there unfortunately but I was comfortable with it because it had most of the last 30-40 years; most of which is irrelevant anyways because it underwent a frame up restoration in 2015.

[8411]

I would like to stay in the low 20's if possible. As I said, I'm not looking for a show plane. Just something that has a good foundation with plenty of life left in the engine and fabric that I can fly as is. I'm not afraid of doing some sprucing up but for what these are selling for a fabric job or major engine work would put a guy pretty far underwater in short order.

[4390]

I've got a few hundred hours in 140's and I still haven't used the flaps, I don't think they are necessary at all. 120's are the same planes without flaps and rear windows, although there's lots of 120's that had rear windows installed. The prices on some of these are way too much and if you follow some you'll see they don't sell. You can get a real nice 140/120 for well under $20K. You just have to be patient, keep looking at them and make sure you do a proper 140/120 pre-buy on the ones you're interested in. High time, poor maintenance, cracks, corrosion, etc. are red flags and need closer inspection. You could easily buy a $15K plane, put $15K into it and wind up with a $15K plane when it's done. It's common to have some missing logs on 70 year old planes since most of them weren't privately owner since new. Flight schools ( for example ) might have shop logs instead of log books for a school plane. Of course it's nice to have the majority of the logs and all the later ones is important.

[6183]

Hello Chris,

I find that the flaps are effective on landing, but remember they're not going to give you the performance that Fowler type units give. As far as using them for takeoff, I don't. Takeoff performance whether it be in a 140 or 120 in a tail low attitude allows this design to takeoff in short distances. You'll find that either model will fit your requirements.

[V529]

Hello and welcome to the show. I'm certain we can help you find what you're looking for.

I've flown every model, engine/wing, landing gear combination.

The differences are subtle, but there. Here are my personal observations.

1. A fabric wing 120 all things being equal is probably a slightly better performer in all aspects.
2. Flaps help slightly for wheel landings, and hurt slightly for 3 point landings. (compared to a 120, or "not using" the flaps at all)
3. Metalized wings are great if you are going to leave it outside much or don't want to deal with fabric. There is a slight weight and airfoil penalty.
4. The only way these tiny flaps will help take offs is to pitch up rapidly at about 35-40 mph, add full flaps simultaneously and then be willing to pitch down rapidly. All this does is help you win shortest take off contests.
5. 140 flaps compared to full fowler flaps on say a later year 150 are almost un-noticeable, you may as well not even bother.
6. For added power without too much weight penalty, either the 0-200 or a C-85 with the stroker kit is your best bang for buck, vs weight.
7. A C-90 is also a great engine, it swings a larger diameter proper, turns slower and has better take off performance. Finding parts for the C-90 going forward may? become problematic.
8. Post s/n 14300 (or very close to that) the main landing gear on both models is swept forward, about 2 inches. Makes for better 3 points and a fraction harder to wheel land. Small but noticeable. A similar effect when/if you see airplanes with "wheel extenders". (put on aircraft in the late 1940's because numerous pilots would use the brakes too aggressively and put the airplane up on its nose) I personally have been involved with the type since the 1960's and have never seen this happen. My wheel extenders were sold for fishing weights years ago.
9. A lycoming -235 or -0290 is a great airplane. Also a 1 person airplane. (legally from a w&b perspective)

I think I covered it. I'm sure others will have more comments.