New 120 and a lot of questions

[8233]

Well, as some of you likely read, I walked away from a 140 that just had too many issues compared to the sale price. As I was calling folks off of the website mechanics list, I ran across someone who had a 120 they wanted to sell and not yet listed. I brought my IA out yesterday and we went through the whole plane and it was very clean, no corrosion, nice interior, acceptable panel. So like my father before me, I am the proud owner of a 120!

Now that is out of the way, I have a ton of questions. I'm sure these have been asked and answered many times on the website forum but since those archives are not back up yet, I am going to repeat them here. Here goes:

1. What's involved in putting in the D Windows? STC required? Since it was a factory option, I think you would just need a FAA mechanic to sign off on it. Does anyone offer a service to do this? Any advice on how to make that happen? Is there a kit out there somewhere?

2. Looking at the original POH, it looks like the 120 could not be certified for IFR flight, even with the required equipment listed in CAR 4a and 91.205. Is that correct?

3. Any suggestions on best option to convert from generator to alternator?

4. Is there a source of the kidney shaped floating panel to get it in different hole configurations? I see a lot of variation in pictures but can't tell if it is a factory thing or if there are after market options

5. My whiskey compass is INOP (there is a back up compass hanging from above but it looks like it was a combo compass and ADF and its a monster. Would love to get rid of it.

6. My pilot side window latch is broken. Is the Univair route my cheapest

7. The co-pilot side window has a hinge at the top but the bottom of screwed into the door frame. Is it possible to make that a openable window on the 120?

I tried to add pics but the message board keeps saying the file sizes are too large. I shrunk them down and still can't upload.

[6183]

Well, as some of you likely read, I walked away from a 140 that just had too many issues compared to the sale price. As I was calling folks off of the website mechanics list, I ran across someone who had a 120 they wanted to sell and not yet listed. I brought my IA out yesterday and we went through the whole plane and it was very clean, no corrosion, nice interior, acceptable panel. So like my father before me, I am the proud owner of a 120!

Now that is out of the way, I have a ton of questions. I'm sure these have been asked and answered many times on the website forum but since those archives are not back up yet, I am going to repeat them here. Here goes:

1. What's involved in putting in the D Windows? STC required? Since it was a factory option, I think you would just need a FAA mechanic to sign off on it. Does anyone offer a service to do this? Any advice on how to make that happen? Is there a kit out there somewhere? Why cut openings for "D" windows? Personally I think a true 120 looses a little of it's looks when the "D" window is put in. Kind of takes away from it's originality and possibly it's value, although that may be debatable.

2. Looking at the original POH, it looks like the 120 could not be certified for IFR flight, even with the required equipment listed in CAR 4a and 91.205. Is that correct? I've seen an IFR Aeronca 7AC Champ which I think is a little far fetched. What does the type certificate for the airplane say? No IFR certification is possible? C-120's were built as an economical version of the C-140, and had the minimum required flight instruments installed. Ive seen some IFR certified C-140's. It may be possible with newer smaller instruments installed, but bear in mind panel space might be limited, and you will also need a source to drive the required gyro instruments. Either all electrical or a combination of vacuum and electrical. If you engine is a C-85/C-90 you will not have the ability to provide a vacuum pump since the case on those engines do not have provisions to add a pump. With the 0-200 yes, but you will need to modify the cowling to accept the pump. Your other option is to utilize venturi units on the side of the fuselage.

3. Any suggestions on best option to convert from generator to alternator? Yes, there is an STC to convert from a generator to an alternator.

4. Is there a source of the kidney shaped floating panel to get it in different hole configurations? I see a lot of variation in pictures but can't tell if it is a factory thing or if there are after market options I'm sure others will chime in on that. My good friend Randy Thompson probably will as will John Cooper and Victor Grahn both my fellow moderators on this site.

5. My whiskey compass is INOP (there is a back up compass hanging from above but it looks like it was a combo compass and ADF and its a monster. Would love to get rid of it. Is that monster's installation covered by a 337? If not it should come out. Getting an approved replacement compass is not too much of an issue.

6. My pilot side window latch is broken. Is the Univair route my cheapestNope, check Ebay.

7. The co-pilot side window has a hinge at the top but the bottom of screwed into the door frame. Is it possible to make that a openable window on the 120? Yes, it wasn't screwed shut when it left the factory.

I tried to add pics but the message board keeps saying the file sizes are too large. I shrunk them down and still can't upload.Keep shrinking them. If that doesn't work, contact Rob Swanland (the site webmaster) who can help you.

[8233]

Thanks for your replies, here's a few answers to your questions:

1. This 120 already has metalized wings so I think the originality train has already left the station but I do understand the perspective. A few reasons for me would be the gaining of a hat shelf so a bit more cockpit storage that's not 100% behind the seat. I think I would get better visibility with the additional windows. My wife isn't crazy about closed spaces so I think it does give the effect of having more room (even if not true)

2. This is what the POH says and the basis of my question. I cannot find anything restricting in the TCDS or CAR 4a:

Your Cessna 120 or 140, licensed under CAA type certificate No. 768, is authorized for the following flight operations:
Contact flight (day) - Model 120 and 140
Contact flight (night) - Model 140 (Model 120 when equipped with electrical system including navigation lights.)
Instrument (night) - Model 140, equipped with two-way
(not for hire) radio, sensitive altimeter, turn and bank indicator, rate of climb indicator and clock with sweep second hand.

Although the TCDS does have this little blurb:

403. CAA Approved Airplane Flight Manual (optional nomenclature:
"Approved Operating Limitations") and pertinent revisions applicable to the particular model and serial
number. Tentatively approved Airplane Flight Manuals in use up to and including the 1947 version
aircraft are acceptable without replacement.

3. Is there more than one option to convert from generator to alternator? Looking for the better one if there is more than one. This 120 does have a C90-12F

4. Thanks, I will look forward to their replies.

5. Yeah, I can't find it in the 337s. I will take a picture of it and yes, I do want to take it out anyway.

6. Not seeing any on eBay right now. Maybe I am using the wrong search criteria. Assuming eBay is a bust, are there any other reasonably priced options?

7. Great to know!

I contacted Rob about the pics, thanks. I shrunk them down to 500K and still won't upload. Doesn't sound right to me.

[2066]

WINDOW LATCH 120 140 170 EBAY 05 22 2018.jpg (145.35 KiB) Viewed 7730 times

This one is on Ebay (170 section). ...a bit pricey @ the asking price of $210.00, but does suggest will take "best offer". They do show up there from time to time as Mike indicates, intact as well as parts...good to search 170 stuff as well as 140 occasionally. You're gonna have fun with this "new" 120 -- congrats! Mac

[Rob Swanland]

Hi David... wow, that's a good looking airplane... congrats! I sent you a PM regarding the image size problem. Essentially the system limits the image size to 256K, however I will be constructing some "how-to" information describing how to shrink image file size without any appreciable loss of image resolution. The main trick here is to reduce the color depth instead of simply shrinking the image size (ht & width). If you send me your original images I will compress the file size and send back to you. For sure we would like to see more pictures of your "new" 120. --Rob

[8233]

Thanks for the assistance. It's very exciting being part of the club and soft of following in my father's footsteps.

If anyone has any ideas on some of my other questions, please let me know.

Thanks!

[6643]

All 120's and most (up to sn 14365) 140s came without the passenger side window latch. It was available as an option, and is a minor modification.

There is (was) a "D" window conversion kit available for the 120. It's a minor modification.

Airpath compasses are available new from the usual suspects. I'd mount it on the glare shield. In the panel is problematic.

Cessna lists (listed) the "Blind Flight Equipment" for both the 120 and 140, so you'd be hard pressed to convince me that the 120 cannot be outfitted for IFR. (Not that I'd recommend it... Can you say "pitot heat"?)

There are several ways to convert to an alternator. Barnstormer's aviation (our own Fred Lagno) has an stc to install the alternator from a Cessna 150. Plane power have a light weight alternator (ER14-50) and also carry the older Jasco conversions. I think the Luscombe foundation or Classic Aero has an STC for B&C alternator. I was able to get a field approval using the 150 alternator and wiring diagram, but that was "back then"... (My PMI has long since retired.) I'd go for the 150 alternator if you can get one, or the Plane power. The B&C scares me as the outer housing spins...

If you want help posting pictures, send me a PM.

Did I miss anything?

Oh, look in the member's library. I think you can download the parts catalog there. Many of your answers are in there.

[8170]

I may have a window latch I would part with a lot cheaper than $210. I am looking into making my own for my patroller doors of a different design. I will remove it and take a picture if you are interested.

[6183]

All 120's and most (up to sn 14365) 140s came without the passenger side window latch. It was available as an option, and is a minor modification. Hmmm, interesting I didn't know that. Where did you get your information about that John? I've never seen that. Don't want to incorrect info here do I. Interesting.

There is (was) a "D" window conversion kit available for the 120. It's a minor modification.

Airpath compasses are available new from the usual suspects. I'd mount it on the glare shield. In the panel is problematic.

Cessna lists (listed) the "Blind Flight Equipment" for both the 120 and 140, so you'd be hard pressed to convince me that the 120 cannot be outfitted for IFR. (Not that I'd recommend it... Can you say "pitot heat"?)

There are several ways to convert to an alternator. Barnstormer's aviation (our own Fred Lagno) has an stc to install the alternator from a Cessna 150. Plane power have a light weight alternator and also carry the older Jasco conversions. I think the Luscombe foundation or Classic Aero has an STC for B&C alternator. I was able to get a field approval using the 150 alternator and wiring diagram, but that was "back then"... (My PMI has long since retired.) I'd go for the 150 alternator if you can get one, or the Plane power. The B&C scares me as the outer housing spins...

If you want help posting pictures, send me a PM.

Did I miss anything?

Oh, look in the member's library. I think you can download the parts catalog there. Many of your answers are in there.

[6643]

Hmmm, interesting I didn't know that. Where did you get your information about that John?

Parts catalog, and my own '46 140.